The Daily Bread Mailbag returns with Stephen “Breadman” Edwards tackling topics such as the return of Deontay Wilder, the big win by Caleb Plant, Devin Haney vs. Vasiliy Lomachenko, Michel Rivera, and much more.
Saw that Deontay Wilder returned with a bang! A first round knockout of Helenius!! It really does seem like if you’re knocked down by Wilder and your name isn’t Tyson Fury, you’re not getting up! Have you ever seen anything like him? I mean, a lot of people criticize him for his lack of quality opposition and flawed fundamentals, but he’s knocked down EVERY opponent he’s faced and ALMOST all of them out! I just feel like that’s beyond insane! Sorry for all the exclamation points, but it just boggles my mind. Going back to Fury and Wilder for a second, where do you rate their trilogy? The second was an incredible Fury performance (I might even go so far as to say it’s his equivalent of Ali-Williams) while the first and third were incredible back-and-forth dramas. Where do they stand in the history of heavyweight trilogies and boxing trilogies in general?
Bread’s Response: Wilder’s criticism is a little overboard. For the exception of the 70s and 90s the heavyweight division is rarely great. Wilder faced the best heavyweight of the era, who had his NUMBER 3x!!!!He could’ve avoided the fight, especially the 2nd. He chose not to. Wilder is must see tv. No one is suggesting he’s an ATG heavyweight. But he’s one of the top 4 or 5 punchers in the division’s history. He goes for it, each and every fight. He’s literally knocked down every opponent he’s ever faced. And he’s knocked out everyone except Fury. In terms of greatest trilogies in boxing history. I don’t think it makes the cut. But in heavyweight history it’s up there. Top 5ish.
Hey Bread,
Great weekend of fights. That shot from Wilder was money. It had me thinking about the 1st Fury fight. I know the referee not immediately stopping the fight in the 12th led to that Undertaker esque moment and a trilogy. My question is how do the refs make those split-second judgements? Fury went down just as hard as Helenius, but Fury was given a count and Helenius stayed asleep. Thanks for always producing quality content.
James
Bread’s Response: I think the refs make those decisions by using discretion. The ref in Fury vs Wilder most likely assumed Fury would get up before the count of 10 and he was correct. Overall, I get more upset when a fighter gets buzzed by a punch and he’s made to basically do a sobriety test. It takes away the advantage of the fighter who did the hurting. I don’t get it and I never will. If a fighter is unfit to continue, JUST stop the fight. If his safety is a concern don’t let him take anymore punches.
Hey Mr Edwards,
What a weekend of boxing we’ve just had! I don’t know where to start. But I guess congratulations are in order and the best I reserve for you. I don’t know how many fans watching realized that the advice you gave Caleb Plant not to fight angry actually played a huge role in the victory. “The Dog” Direll set traps. Very, very dangerous traps and the more emotional Plant became the more I feared for him. Yes, he looked calm and boxed superbly but I discerned a slight, imperceptible and slowly increasing level of anger in his execution which would inevitably have led him into one of Direll’s three traps. Direll wanted to catch him coming in and the way he was sitting on the left hook counter you could see he was throwing it as a money shot. The second trap was a counter right cross thrown with the same intent.
The third trap is what I want to talk about because, (and here I’m going against my philosophy never to criticize people who are experts in their fields), I believe one of the worst refereeing performances I have witnessed in my years of watching boxing prevented Direll from executing the third trap. I had plenty of respect for Harvey Dock before Saturday night. Now I’m not so sure. The manner in which he instantly broke up the fighters every time they clinched was shocking to see. This was no amateur or prelim fight. This was a cross-roads fight with a volatile sub-plot between two fighters who have been to the mountain top. Direll’s third trap was clearly to force the fight to close quarters and unload a right uppercut on the inside. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying Direll was going to succeed with the right uppercut. For all I know, Plant blocks it or pulls away from it. Plant is the best fighter today at pulling away from punches in Muhammad Ali fashion, which is really something not in the boxing textbook.
But, I would have loved to see Direll try and, if he failed, let it be because Plant was defensively responsible and not because Harvey Dock was quicker to the draw in breaking up the clinch. This was shocking to behold. Plant is one of the most mobile fighters in the modern era and an old fighter like Direll was always going to struggle to get close to him. You don’t take away the limited opportunities he has by quickly breaking up the clinch as if it’s the most illegal thing in boxing. As long as each fighter has a hand free, let them fight on the inside. However, Plant delivered and made a statement. I’m not sure the version of Canelo I saw in the trilogy with GGG would get past Plant at this stage.
The more intriguing fight is Plant-David Benavidez. Is Benavidez too strong, too big, too busy and hits too hard for Plant, or does Plant box rings around him and sucker him into the power punch everyone thought he did not have before Saturday night? Let’s wait. But Plant cannot be ignored in the super middleweight picture. Briefly on to other action over the weekend before you castigate me for a long email. If Devin Haney cannot hurt Vasily Lomachenko he is in serious trouble. Loma is a gun and I’m afraid Haney doesn’t sit enough on his punches to discourage Loma from walking him down. Loma can box, fight, brawl and has a boxing brain the likes of which Haney has not encountered in the professional ring so far. Yes, Kambosos is not a bad fighter but he’s no Loma. I’ve said it before and I will say it again. Any heavyweight, and that goes for Tyson Fury, who faces the lean version of Deontay Wilder is in great peril. Wilder, by bulking up in the rematch and trilogy, actually contributed greatly to his own crushing defeats. Let’s not get carried away with the Robert Helenius execution but Wilder is certainly number two behind Fury.
However, I would back Wilder if they were to fight a fourth time and Wilder comes in lean and mean. Claressa Shields was right all along. Savannah Marshall did nothing but milk an amateur victory dry for years. It wasn’t even close. Is she the GWOAT. It’s hard to argue against her because of her achievements but others have an argument too. I don’t know if I have a sentimental attachment to Laila Ali but that girl could fight and had serious power, which Shields lacks. Thank you for your criticism on my last write-in. I did not mean to disparage Milton McCrory, though. I just wondered at how he fizzled out after being wiped out by Donald Curry. I had heard he was a great talent.
Keep punching sir.
Katlholo – Johannesburg, South Africa.
Bread’s Response: I think Harvey Dock did a solid job. I think he broke Plant and Dirrell faster than usual because Dirrell was throwing a right hand behind Plant’s head. And to stop the illegal blows, Dock broke them fast from clinches.
Haney does not have to hurt Loma to beat him. He has to win 7 out of 12 rounds. His length and jab will trouble Loma.
Wilder was 210lbs in his 1st fight with Fury. But I do agree, he’s better 220lbs or below. If Fury keeps fighting Wilder, eventually Wilder will land a kill shot, he won’t recover from. You can’t keep playing with that type of fire.
I disagree about Savannah Marshall. I thought she fought a helluva fight. I think Shields won clean but that was a hard fight. Shields had to dig down to win. She was hurt and fatigued. Marshall pushed her like no other opponent ever has. Did you see Claressa’s emotions after? It wasn’t just because she won. It was because she knew what she overcame. She knew how hard that fight was. I’m not talking about points. I’m talking about competitiveness second for second. That was REAL. Give both ladies their props. Shields was better. She’s at the top of the food chain. But Marshall gave a great account of herself in a competitive loss.
Congratulations on Plant’s win on Saturday night. What a statement! Hope you get Charlo or Benavides next. On another note, can you give me your thoughts on Manny Rodriguez. Not sure if you had a chance to watch the fight against Russell but boy was that a dominant performance. Really shows Inoue’s greatness. Rodriguez should only have that one loss because he got robbed against Gaballo. Does he have a shot against Inoue if they rematch? If Inoue moves up is Rodriguez the best at 118. Would love your insight. Second thought. Adams Boxing Show put up a mythical matchup between Trinidad vs Spence on twitter and I couldn’t believe the disrespect for Tito. Would love your thoughts on that fight. My thought, no one who stood with Tito and fought ever beat him because of his power and stamina. Spence would try and box but would be forced to engage as Tito would put constant pressure. Lights out.
Thanks.
Bread’s Response: I did see Rodriguez vs Russell from the dressing room. From the very beginning Rodriguez had Russell timed. His right hand was zoned in on Russell. In our dressing room we were rooting for Russell because Russell and Caleb are very cool. I was hoping Russell would change his rhythm because of Rodriguez’s timing. Easier said than done.
Rodriguez fought a GREAT fight. I was very impressed. He was so locked in. His trainer also did a great job because he seemed prepared for everything Russell did. He would even try to shoot some of his punches UNDER Russell’s guard because Russell holds his hands extremely high. I’m assuming Rodriguez had a great camp.
I also want to give props to Russell for taking his first loss like a true competitor. He was hurt several times and he never stopped trying to WIN. He showed tremendous determination and heart. We have seen fighters recently ACCEPT their 1st LOSS. And just don’t try to do anything to change the course of the fight. Antonio Russell didn’t do that. He kept fighting. He has HIGH character.
Inoue is an ATG fighter in his prime. I don’t believe anyone can beat him from 118 on down.
Tito vs Errol would be a great fight. Errol has the physical strength and jab to trouble Tito. Many would reference the Winky Wright fight and give Errol the edge. But that was in 2005, Tito was past it and it was at 160lbs. Tito peaked out at like 28. He had 40 fights when he fought Bhop, where as Errol is 32 right now and he only has 28 fights. So it’s important to know they weren’t at the same place at the same age. This era moves slower.
If you twist my arm best day for best day. Say the Tito of 95-98. Say the time he got Larry Barnes, that 4 or 5 fight span. Vs Errol of what 2017-present. Or just say the Brook and Peterson fights. I would give a slight edge to Tito but I’m not one of those people who always think the fighter from the PAST wins. It would be a close brutal fight, but Tito is ATG and I just have to see Errol in with that level of fighter to be fair to him. Let’s see how he looks vs Crawford and Ennis then we can assess this more fairly in Errol’s favor.
Hi Mr Edwards! Hope you and your family you’re doing well. First congratulations with your win with Plant, am wondering how did he time that hook. Since Haney has beaten George which I believe we all knew he was going too, I still believe Lomachenko is going to beat Haney then Shakur beats Lomachenko, as I believe Shakur is going to be the face or even the cash making boxer for Top Rank. Do you think that’s a bit possible? After Haney loses to Loma he’s going to move to 140lbs. I do see Shakur being undisputed in the year of 2024. I also think if Garcia gets to fight Tank he’s going to be clipped with how Tank is able to get those knockout punches when they’re needed the most. I hope Caleb Plant gets to fight Charlo and I believe he’s going to win if that gets made. I also want to ask about this one how does a boxer build up his engine?? What’s the best way to create power without using weights??
All the way from Swaziland now known as Eswatini
Bread’s Response: I’m not so sure Loma beats Haney. Let me see how Loma looks vs Ortiz. I think Loma struggles with the size of lightweights. It takes him longer to break the distance. It takes him longer to break them down. He’s 34 now. I think Loma has been struggling in most of his fights since he emptied his tank vs the best Linares we have ever seen. Loma is underrated in terms of where he is All Time. He gets criticized too much for his 2 losses. He’s 13-2 in title fights. It’s absurd he gets criticized.
But in terms of where he is at this exact moment. I don’t know if he beats Haney or Shakur. There is no such thing as a 34 year old lightweight in their prime. If he’s able to beat them, it would be monumental.
The best way to create power without using weights…..is to hit a big heavy bag correctly with power. You build an engine(stamina) many ways. But the best way to build one from my personal experience is as a kid. I’ve been building my children’s engines since they were toddlers. And both can GO all day in any sport they choose. If you haven’t built your engine as a kid. Then you have to be consistent as an adult. Running, sprinting and swimming on a consistent basis. Along with intense boxing and floor work and your engine will be built up. Your diet keeps it up. Recovery allows you to train at 100% each session. Very simple but it’s not easy, if it was, everyone would do it.
Bread,
What are your thoughts on Michael Rivera? He seems to be a physically imposing guy for 135 but he rarely gets mentioned. How would he do against the bigger names in the division?
Bread’s Response: Michel Rivera can fight. I think he has an excellent all around game. He has good size. Good legs. An excellent jab. Good 2 fisted attack. Excellent conditioning. And a tremendous trainer in Herman Caicedo. I think Rivera is LIVE vs every single lightweight in boxing right now. He’s a dark horse.
Breadman,
Great call comparing Joe Joyce to Margarito and Foreman. After you said that I went back and watched some clips. It was almost uncanny. It’s almost like he has the rhythm and activity of Margarito with the form and power of Foreman. Thanks for your objective take on Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa. It is easy to see that each of those players (and Clemens) were great, but their talent and accomplishments went through the roof during that time. This is a great quote: “Cheating has no color, but the people who criticize the cheaters DO.” Of course that isn’t limited to cheating, but it is funny which athletes we’ll defend or criticize, and why.
One possible disagreement – One thing that bothers me about Andre Ward, especially in the Kessler fight, were the “roughhouse” tactics. In that fight it seemed over the top. I don’t doubt he’s a better all-around fighter then Kessler, but he just overdid it in that fight. Is it just smart boxing, or is it dirty? Watching fights where fighters are deliberately hugging, mugging, elbowing, headbutting, etc., can be very frustrating. I always think, “Yeah, Tyson Fury (or whoever) is skilled and has a lot of heart, but he’s also a dirty fighter who wore Wilder down by leaning on him and holding.” Am I wrong? And of course, good luck this weekend.
John in FL
Bread’s Response: Most times fighters are a mix of 2 or 3 fighters of past generations. Very seldom do you see a dead ringer. Joyce has the Foreman/Margarito mix. That’s a helluva mix. No one wants to fight Joyce in this current form. He breaks the common concept of vulnerability. Yeah he “looks’ slow and “easy to hit”. Well, well, well…..Fight him then.
If you’re a cheater, you’re a liar. If you cheat at a high level in sports, most likely you’re also a sociopath. Remember when Roger Clemens testified in front of Congress….My goodness! I try not to get into who would’ve been great without the cheating because they aren’t worth the mental gymnastics it takes to figure it out.
However, I do respect Alex Rodriguez. He’s one of the few stars of that era, who admitted what he did. Hats off to him.
The media is so bias it’s disgusting. It’s bothersome. The media has more power than most realize and it’s hard to get an objective take from them in all sports.
I think Ward is rough, but I wouldn’t call him DIRTY. Ward is a fast thinker. So he does things to put himself in an advantageous position. He clinches, then quickly punches out of the clinch. He frees one hand in the clinch and punches. It looks dirty, but to me it’s quick thinking and taking every advantage. Watch Ward closely. I think it’s just a matter of a fighter, who is rougher than he appears and thinks faster than his opponents. Who literally takes advantage of every single thing the opponent is slow reacting to.
Hello Breadman Adrián Soto-Perez here from NC, much respect. I have two questions for you: 1. Do you consider tank Davis an all time puncher for his weight class? In terms of power and/or KO ability. And 2. What would it take for tank to become an all time great fighter in your opinion? Thank you
Bread’s Response: 1. Tank is a great puncher for 130 and 135. I don’t know if he’s an ATG puncher yet, but most likely yes. Let me think on it. The best punchers I’ve seen in my lifetime at 135 are Alexis Arguello, Oscar De La Hoya and Edwin Rosario. At 130 Oscar De La Hoya, Manny Pacquiao, Diego Corrales, Alexis Arguello, Julio Cesar Chavez and Azumah Nelson. Thinking out loud I would say Tank is on par with them.
2. If Tank fights and beats most of his contemporaries, he would be an ATG fighter. He has Garcia, Loma, Haney, Shakur and Teofimo. He certainly has the opponents in his era to be an ATG.
Bread,
In your experience do boxers who have a high in-ring IQ and processing speed also have high IQ and are quick thinkers outside the ring ?
Thanks, Tony
Bread’s Response: Yes but nothing is 100%. But for the most part it holds true. The boxing ring is a TRUTH MACHINE.
Greetings Mr Edwards,
I hope you’re in good health. Big congratulations on Caleb Plant’s victory. Last weekend was probably the biggest in boxing this year in terms of big names that fought. There were two things related to the main event fighters which led to a debate in online boxing circles.
First a lot of people thought that Devin Haney looked parched at the weigh ins and a lot of people are saying that his days at 135 are numbered or possibly over. What do you think about it? Will it be a mistake for Haney to keep fighting at 135. A lot of big names are at 135 and it could lead to a lot of paydays for Devin, but will it affect his performance?
Second, Deontay Wilder’s KO of Helenius is being touted as a dive by Helenius, possibly a fixed fight. While I respect Wilder’s power and consider him top 5 hardest puncher of all time, I do agree with last weekend’s KO could be a dive. I watched Deontay’s knockdowns in the 3rd Fury fight (1st Knockdown), the Szpilka fight and last week’s fight in slow motion. In all three fights he was either on the backfoot or in the neutral stance and not driving himself forward.
In the Szpilka fight it was a powerful hook, in the Fury fight he was in neutral stance and didn’t have a lot of space to load his punch. Both punches, though not loaded, visually give a sense of having a strong impact. This punch against Helenius did not create a sense of visual impact at all, there was only the sound. Given that the Wilder-Scott fight had serious allegations of a dive, people have their suspicions about this one too. Please educate us on the KO mechanics, can a punch knock you out if it’s not lightning fast or right on the button or fully loaded or the opponent runs into a moderately loaded punch. Does Wilder really have that much power that an effortless straight on the backfoot can KO a 250 pound guy or is Helenius glass chinned.
Lastly, Lomachenko will be fighting soon, what should Loma do against Ortiz that makes you think that he’ll beat Haney and Shakur or alternatively that he has no chance against those two.
Thank you for providing us with knowledge every week.
Bread’s Response: Devin did looked drained at the weigh in but he still fought well. He knows his body. I can’t say if he should move up or not because I’m not around him in the gym. The telling sign is when he starts to cut weight, how he performs in the gym.
From what I know about Devin, he invest in his body. He has a nutritionist. He lives clean. He does the right thing. So he’s going to know when it’s time to move up.
I think Loma is in tough vs Ortiz. Very tough. I’m picking Loma to win but this is a tough fight. If Loma wins most of the rounds and stops Ortiz, I think it would go a long way in swaying the perception that he’s slipping.
I’ve personally seen fighters take dives in fights. I’ve seen fighters get hurt then act more hurt in order to get the fight stopped. I won’t say who the fighters are but I’ve seen it at least 4 times. In the Wilder vs Helenius fight, I don’t believe that happened. I think Helenuis is chinny. He’s been KO’d a few times before, not that, that means anything but his rep is that of a chinny fighter.
From what I saw, Helenius RAN into Wilder’s counter shot. So therefore the impact was great because it was a head on collision. It wasn’t the biggest shot Wilder has ever thrown but again Helenius doesn’t take it well. On top of that look at how Helenius fell. Look at how his eyes rolled to the back of his head. If he faked that, then he picked the wrong profession. He is the best actor I have ever seen.
Fighters who fake being KO’d don’t do it like that. They can’t fall that clean without bracing themselves. They can’t make their eyes roll up like Helenius’s did. It’s usually a thing where the fighter who gets dropped, acts like he’s extra hurt. He wobbles his own legs. He tries to get up, then he falls again and wobbles some more. I’ve seen two GGG opponents do it. It’s obvious when you see it, if you know what to look for.
Again, in this case I think Helenius ran into a big shot, that he didn’t see, while he was punching. That’s a ko in the making for a chinny fighter, who is facing one of the biggest punchers we have ever seen.
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