The Daily Bread Mailbag returns with Stephen “Breadman” Edwards tackling topics such as the junior middleweight and middleweight divisions, Devin Haney vs. Vasiliy Lomachenko, David Benavidez vs. Caleb Plant, Anthony Joshua, Shakur Stevenson and more.
I hope someone in the boxing media finally admits that super welterweight/junior middleweight is an average weight class. I hope you will do that, or tell me why I’m wrong and the regular narrative isn’t. Here’s the evidence for my side of the case: Jermell Charlo, the undisputed champion, has lost and drawn to guys in the division who are not pound-for-pound guys. Tony Harrison is 29-4-1. Brian Castano is 17-1-2. I doubt Charlo is really elite considering those two results. It’s hard to imagine Tony Harrison or Brian Castano in a close fight with Terence Crawford or Errol Spence.
It’s also worth mentioning that everyone Charlo won his titles from, hold Castano, have been completely exposed since they lost to Charlo. Tony Harrison is 1-2-1 since his win over Charlo. Jeison Rosario is 3-2 since losing to Charlo. John Jackson is 1-1 since the Charlo loss. Charlo’s next big potential opponent, the guy who’s supposed to be the “next big thing” in the weight class, is Tim Tszyu. Tszyu is a nepo baby who looked poor in his one assignment outside of Australia. Maybe Tsyzu is decent but he doesn’t look like a world-beater.
Other “next big things” like Sebastian Fundora and Erickson Lubin have both been exposed twice now. Of the six other fighters ranked either by Ring Magazine or the Transnational Boxing Rankings Board that I haven’t mentioned, five are undefeated prospects who haven’t done anything yet. Madrimov, Kurbanov, Ramos, Murtazaliev and Conwell could be great, but who knows? Every division has guys like that, so I don’t think they’re the reason 154 is strong. I actually think seeing so many untested guys make the top 10 is a sign of a division’s flaws, not its strengths.
The final Ring/TBRB ranked fighter I haven’t mentioned yet is Liam Smith. Smith clearly isn’t a world beater, yet I could see him beating almost everyone at 154.I’m not trying to put any fighters down, I respect them all. I just think it’s silly that everyone picked out 154 as some kind of hotbed when it’s clearly not that. I believe we can respect boxers without overhyping them and their competition. I hope we get there with the 154 pound division. I appreciate you either confirming my feelings or explaining to me why I’m so wrong. Thank you as always, the mailbag is great and not overhyped.
Bread’s Response: I disagree. I never heard anyone say that 154 is the HOTBED of boxing. But I have heard people say that it’s an excellent division. One of the reasons it is, is because it’s treated like the UFC. PBC had or has most of the top guys at 154 and for the most part they all fought each other. So you will have top fighters consistently lose. There is a winner and loser to every fight.
I do agree that 154 has not produced an ATG fighter. But you seem to criticize Jermell Charlo. But Because of Jermell’s consistency and run at 154 I think he’s a HOF. It’s hard to criticize a fighter who became a HOF in the division you don’t seem to think highly of.
135 is considered the top division in boxing. Only Lomachenko has fought RING rated top guys consistently. There wouldn’t be so many undefeated fighters in the division with aura’s invincibility if they fought each other. They would have 2 and 3 losses just like the guys at 154 do.
Again, I’m not saying the fighters at 154 are better, fighter for fighter. But what I am saying is that they’re fighting each other. I think you should appreciate a division that for the last decade the best fighters have fought each other and because of this we haven’t had one dominant superstar but it has made for some excellent fights.
Bread, Hope you are doing well. I’m feeling a little bad for Haney with folks saying that Loma is now old. While I know that age affects fighters differently and Loma had an extensive amateur career. What are your thoughts on why he might have lost a step? Is it age, being in the wrong weight division, health, or a mix of everything? Would love to see him go down and face the Cuban Ramirez.
Take care sir.
Bread’s Response: Why are you feeling bad for Haney? He’s about to defend his title vs a great fighter that he’s a favorite to beat and he’s going to make a great deal of money doing so. Loma is older but he’s not shot. He’s very capable. But the truth is he’s not the same guy from 2016-18. I haven’t seen that guy since the Linares fight. But credit to Haney he’s been trying to fight Loma forever, so that’s not on him.
I think even Haney said that Loma was too old and too small on social media a while back. But it’s no biggie, it’s how boxing works. One day Haney may be in his mid 30s and some younger, faster, bigger kids will want his status and scalp. This game is built on attrition. I think injuries, age, size and how much of what Loma had to put out to win the Linares fight has caused Loma to slip slightly. But he chose to move up to 135lbs. He also chose to say there once he moved up. So while I think he’s smaller and at a disadvantage. He’s still a great fighter and it was his choice.
Good day Bread,
Couple of things. I feel like Benavidez is to Canelo as Foreman was to Ali. He’s GGG all over again, I’m not sure if he’s as good, but it just has that feeling. I was really surprised to see Fundora get KO’d like that, I knew Mendoza wasn’t a scrub, but it looked like Fundora was weighing on him and running him hot. I missed the KO because UFC was on at the same time… sigh, so much for that Charlo shot. Speaking of Charlo, the more this hand injury goes on, I’m kind of nervous for him vs Tsyzu. I’m calling it now Katie Taylor will lose to Cameron Chantelle. She has been laboring the last few fights. I’ve noticed subtle drop offs since she fought Persoon, each fight she’s digging deep. Cameron is at 140 and Taylor is coming off a tough fight with Serrano and looked just ok in her last fight.
If they don’t make Spence-Crawford this year it will never happen. Lastly Shakur looks stronger at 135, he’s filled out nicely. He gave me Floyd-Gatti vibes on Saturday. I love that boxer-puncher style that he, Crawford & Keyshawn has. Who would you take right now with him and Tank? I think he would win because he would box Tank on the outside, but it definitely wouldn’t be easy. Shakur beats Haney, as good as Devin is, something is lacking with his offensive repertoire. Sorry for the long email, I had a lot to get off my chest!
Much love to you & yours brother!
Bread’s Response: I feel like the only way we will know how Canelo and Benavidez match up is if Canelo fights him. The ball is in Canelo’s court. He has to want to make the fight.
I thought Brian Mendoza was live and I said so publicly. Mendoza is a sneaky puncher who has a load of confidence these days. And I felt like Fundora’s high volume gangly style has a high peak but a bad drop off. So…Shakur Stevenson may be the hardest fighter in the world to beat. I’m not sure if he’s the best yet. But in terms of difficult he’s a puzzle. I would love to see him vs any of the young top guys. I’m not going to pick a winner yet though. I want to see them to sign to fight.
What’s good Brotha Bread. Plant put up a courageous effort against DB but if I’m honest it looked to me like the same thing that happened against some of his other opponents. I’m not sure if he has a hard time catching his second wind or if he starts to lose focus down the stretch but there is something about that 4th quarter that bites him. It could be a mental thing at this point. The funny thing is he didn’t look tired. I thought he was beating Canelo and then Canelo sort of walked him down and although he won against Uztoki he was also starting to walk him down. Plant is a terrific fighter but to be one of the best in this era he has to get over that. I was listening to a Tank interview and I’ll try not to put words in his mouth but in essence he said that Ryan does not have it. That they are from 2 different places. The interviewer ask was he talking about the way they grew up and he basically said yes. This got me to thinking.
Can you think of a fighter who grew up well and still dominated at a high level? It seems like there is always a common factor with boxers who really dominate at a high level. They always seem to come from brokenness. A broken home, a broken relationship, a broken family system, etc… I thought Joshua boxed well against Franklin and I love James coaching style and the system he is building over there but Joshua may need one of those sports hypnosis to get his killer mentality back. Idk if that really works but at this point he should try it. Hearns I going to put him in against Dylan White next and I have a sneak suspicion that he will get knocked out and I hate that because I hate DW. Dylan White is like the kid that wants to be the bully but keeps taking L’s. If AJ had Whites mentality he would be a bad dude.
Bread’s Response: There have been more fighters than you probably realized that didn’t come from desolate backgrounds. Muhammad Ali believe it or not was not what you call POOR in comparison to others in his era. His father was a painter. He only had one other sibling and he didn’t miss many meals.
Marco Antonio Barrera comes from a decent background in Mexico.
Errol Spence currently. If I’m not mistaken, father has a successful business.
Poor kids have traditionally excelled in boxing but success is not exclusive to being poor as some have proved.
Joshua boxed solid. Derrick James is a great trainer. But as you stated Joshua’s issues seem to be mental. I do believe sports psychologist and stress management doctors are good for athletes.
Hey Breadman,
Big fan of your mailbag, have been reading it for a few years now and that’s pretty much the only thing I am looking forward throughout the week when I go to BoxingScene. I loved how Caleb fought and in my opinion the strategy and the tactics were perfect but I feel, I really feel in the bottom of my heart, that if Plant had taken care of one technical issue he would’ve won the fight.
I had the first 5 rounds clearly for Plant and the last 7 clearly and more convincingly for Benavidez. So I had it 7-5 for David but I just felt that Plant got hurt the most in the clinch and I loved the tactic of clinching when he got hurt or to get a breather/slow the pace, and I mean no disrespect to you sir or to Caleb but his clinching skills were horrible against David and they were pretty bad against Dirrell too. What I mean by that is that Plant would clinch with both overhooks and keep his arms low at a waist level. That really gave David the opportunity to land hooks from both sides. Had Plant clinched with a high underhook (shoulder high), Robcon Conceicao did an amazing job with that against Valde, with the left arm and a strong overhook with the right arm Benavidez would’ve been nullified. Instead, I felt that Benavidez began to hurt Plant in the clinch. Congrats on great job and an outstanding corner work!
Eugene from Toronto
Bread’s Response: Thank you. All I can say is Caleb and I did our best. We worked on every single thing that happened in the fight. But in the heat of the moment under live fire sometimes it doesn’t work out as perfectly as it does in the gym under less stress.
The clinching theory is tough and hindsight is always 20/20. I think the clinching fatigued Caleb somewhat. But I also think the clinching nullified some of David’s offense and it fatigued David also who expended energy trying to get out of it.
Caleb is not as confident in his infighting as David is. So when David got in there, Caleb had 3 choices. Punch with David. Use his legs and get back outside. Or clinch. I also think Caleb got hit with a very good body in the 6th or 7th round that bothered him and he clinched to recover. People seem offended by that, but if you stick around long enough you will see everyone clinch. In the next fight Caleb will be more complete. He’s going to clinch better and infight better. He’s also going to be better because of testing himself vs a killer like David Benavidez.
Is Loma an all-time great 126/130 lb fighter in your opinion? Is James Toney underrated? Or properly rated? Is Deontay Wilder one of the top 5 heaviest punchers in boxing history? Where does tank Davis rank amongst heaviest punchers in 130//135 lb history? Could this current dominant Tyson Fury have defeated the greatest heavyweight champions of the past (Ali, Foreman, Tyson, Lennox Lewis, Joe Louis, etc? ) What is/are the most important aspects of having and/or developing punching power?
Thank you for your time much respect always! ASP from NC
Bread’s Response: Loma may be an ATG at 130lbs. Not 126lbs. Featherweight is one of the original 8 divisions and he didn’t stay there long enough.
I think James Toney is an ATG fighter. One of the top 6 or 7 fighters of the 90s and he’s your favorite fighter’s, favorite fighter. I think he’s properly rated. He’s in the HOF. He’s a top 5 ever fighter at 168lbs. And he was widely considered one of the best of his decade….
Tank is a top 10 puncher ever at both weights. He’s a huge puncher. And in terms of great punchers at 130 and 135. He fits right in with Saddler, Nelson, Arguello, Rosario, Chavez, Pacquiao among others.
I believe that Tyson Fury would be competitive with any heavyweight in history but if you’re asking m would he defeat the guys you named. I’m going to say he would win some and lose some but he wouldn’t run the table.
Power=Force x Velocity. So if you can figure out a way to become faster and bigger then you can generate more power. If you can learn to move your mass at a faster speed so it can have a bigger effect upon impact, then you can become more powerful. I’ve never uttered the ridiculous words you can’t build power. Or you have to be born with power. It’s simply not true. Humans have learned to throw faster, jump higher and punch harder. All of this applies to building power.
The steroid era in baseball proved that. All of those guys got stronger and more explosive therefore they hit the ball further with more power. If you’re clean the results won’t come as fast but you can still build power.
Ssup Bread,
A great performance by Shakur. One thing I noticed is that he is neither very fast not very mobile but is still very effective. I see some resemblance of Pernell Whitaker. Of course, Whitaker was faster but I noticed that Shakur generally does move in very large circles. He is simply about fighting at his preferred range. If one moves in very large circles then it becomes a little easy to pin him against the ropes but if you just maintain your preferred range or move in small circles like Whitaker, you have a lot of space behind you to move back and pivot out if your opponent tries to close the distance. Keyshawn Davis vs Shakur Stevenson – Who wins? What is going on with Vergil Ortiz? He is permanently injured. I rarely see something like this with boxers. It is much more common among MMA fighters and the ones that are injured very often start losing very soon. He has killed his career momentum due to all his injuries. Do you think he should ditch his dad?
Regards, Saurabh
Bread’s Response: I think Stevenson is fast. He’s not lightning fast but he’s very fast. But his gift is his mind quickness. He beats his opponents to the thought of everything they’re about to do. He does remind me of Whitaker a little bit. I think he’s a mix of Whitaker and Mayweather. Whitaker contorted his body a little more defensively than Stevenson does….Stevenson has smooth speed. It’s relaxed. It’s direct. It’s hard to time. It’s the speed you want. If you had to pick between Stevenson’s speed and Amir Khan’s speed, take Stevenson’s everytime.
Stevenson has this innate ability to slow down his opponent’s offense. Take away the target right before they punch. And he can hit them with whatever punches he wants. Boxing really comes down to a simple concept. The fighter who can land the best punches consistently and stop his opponent from landing the best punches consistently, will usually win the fight. Stevenson is exceptional at this.
Keyshawn Davis and Shakur Stevenson are friends. Stevenson is a 2 division champion. Davis is still a prospect. Let’s see Davis develop more first before we ask who would win if they fight.
I’ve always felt Ortiz’s frenetic hard punching style is hard to sustain. He doesn’t do anything smooth or relaxed and smooth and relaxed styles age well. I’ve said so publicly that I hope he gets a title shot early because of this. I’ve never seen a fighter punch so hard and fast and require so much energy in his style and sustain it in his mid 30s. Mike Tyson no….Aaron Pryer no…..If you look at Ortiz close, you have never seen a fighter with a comparable style excel in his 30s.
I don’t know what’s wrong with him in specific medical terms. But from the eyeball test and using layman’s terms he seems like a burnt out fighter. He seems to have pushed himself over the top. I don’t know if it’s fixable or not but I hope he does fix it. I really like watching him fight and you never like seeing unfulfilled potential.
I would never say Ortiz needs to get rid of his dad. I have no idea what happened or happens in his training. Just because he looks burnt out that doesn’t mean his dad did it. I have no idea who’s responsible. But his dad had to do something right. He’s still undefeated and he’s on the verge of challenging for a title. Most times when a dad trains their son, they’re both starting out from scratch and they learn and get better together. So let’s see if Vergil and his dad can adjust and get better together. They’re undefeated with all kos at this moment, let’s see if they can overcome Vergil’s health issues.
Hey Bread
In your last mail you’ve done top 10 p4p based on who would beat who, if everyone were the same weight. Can you do the same based more on their body of works, accomplishments? For example I like Terence Crawford to be N1 based on the eye test, but his resume is weak in comparison to others (Only Postol & Crawford being Top rated fighters of the time).
Thanks.
Bread’s Response: My P4P list is my P4P list. I factored in resume and accomplishments also and that’s the list I came up with. Besides Canelo and Estrada none of the current top fighters have great resumes or career defining wins. You guys pick out Crawford for some reason but most of the top guys have similar resumes to Crawford without being as dominant. Crawford has dominated the best available opponent or 8 straight years without one controversial win, through 3 divisions. Competition faced or resumes is very important but it can be misleading.
For example a fighter of the status of Canelo will usually have a better resume than a fighter the status of Crawford. Because fighting Canelo is always the career high payday. No one is ever going to turn him down. Where as you will get paid to fight Crawford but not on the same scale as a Canelo fight. So Canelo has a larger pool of people to pick from. So yes I give Canelo props for an excellent resume but if you know, you know.
What’s up, Bread? I just wanted to touch on a very odd phenomenon that I witness. Philadelphia fight fans and pundits constantly sing the praises of and hype Jaron ‘Boots’ Ennis, but hardly even mention Stephen Fulton when boxing conversations come up. To say this is strange would be a gross understatement. Boots is 31 fights in, and the best win on his resume is Custio Clayton. Think about that for a moment. Not only that, but Ennis was WBO #2 to Bud Crawford’s belt. Vergil Ortiz Jr. predictably bowed out of pursuing a Crawford mandatory bout and instead went the WBA route. That made Boots next man up. What does Boots do? He goes the IBF route.
Meanwhile, Steph Fulton could have entertained the Brandon Figueroa rematch at 126, but instead stuck around at 122 to take on arguably the #2 P4P fighter I’m the world and absolute “Monster” on July 25th. That’s how true champions conduct themselves. They don’t make goofy YouTube videos with their dad proclaiming that they are the “Boogyman” and everyone in the division is running from them, as Boots and Bozy have done on numerous occasions. Boots has been moving funny lately, and didn’t look great in his last fight. In short, Stephen Fulton has continually run TOWARDS the smoke. Mr. Ennis has recently been running FROM the smoke. Why is Ennis more highly acclaimed professionally than Fulton, a unified, proven and accomplished champion with the guys and self-belief to travel to Japan for the most dangerous fight of his career? Am I missing something?
Carl in Queens, NY
Bread’s Response: First off, I love both of the kids. I’ve watched them both come up in the gyms. Fulton is a kid a called PBC for personally to tell them to sign him. And Boots is a kid who passes the eyeball test with colors we haven’t seen in this city in decades. I can’t control or say who gets more love. But I don’t want to get into any divide and conquer conversations about two kids I have love for. There is no need for a comparison. Boots is in his lane and Scooter is in his.
Scooter is in a much lower weight division, with a different landscape and he has different management than Boots. He’s also older and he’s further along in terms of accomplishments because of this. Boots fights at a higher weight. He has a flashy hard punching style that fans love and people are waiting for him to BLOW UP and get his big shot. Let’s appreciate both and not do these asinine comparisons.
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